跟贾陆英老师学《论语》为政篇第1章 2013年12月13日

     今日下午3：30贾陆英老师《论语》问答录在老秘网QQ群“重温经典读书会”准时开讲。本期学习讨论《论语》为政篇第1章，网友们的参与热情高涨。老猫出差刚回，现整理如下：

( G0 t' i; J2 R( Q/ h7 smso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">

% Q8 X$ e) m5 j) |0 omso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ( c& M( w+ K- W) D x) ~Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：" ~* `6 P! j) K# C% J! x0 Q& h 0pt">

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) x6 Y# I4 h& V; ?; v% GTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> 

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% x' r e9 T" R3 r5 T7 }4 l mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 2 Q, X7 ?& F) z4 i1 a7 iTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">今天下午，我们学习讨论《论语》为政篇第3 K! A" M. x3 ?( v( Dmso-font-kerning:0pt">16 ~# B* _8 e& u( t1 m) D- Vfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; * U& k3 y" `+ T! `2 \' g$ f3 }mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">章：/ @. u$ a; |0 S5 q, Q7 d mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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2•17 e7 o' u" V6 R/ i" B( STahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">子曰：- R: Y+ Y. l8 ]5 X, u$ z6 D/ ` mso-font-kerning:0pt">"& `1 F2 ?$ p1 w2 Rmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">为政以德，譬如北辰，居其所而众星共之。5 Q5 t0 C$ _& e3 t+ s# }color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">"

8 M F4 F/ w8 ~" Y$ Imso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: # x0 t& D6 F$ L1 S$ WTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">北辰：指北极星。所：处所、位置。共：同拱，环绕。比喻众多的人簇拥着一个被他们尊敬的人，或许多东西围绕着一个中心。, }& j8 O; ]/ N0 m/ R: D7 K$ [ mso-font-kerning:0pt">
* R9 w- L( `6 U1 J5 Y+ A Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">孔子说：' z% ^6 r9 x% O2 L' a& Z* o- c 10.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">“9 H8 `. `! X/ ?3 a4 Gmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">靠高尚的品德来施政，这样的为政者好比是北极星，居于自己的位置上，众多的星星都环绕着它。9 f# \ E7 D3 Imso-font-kerning:0pt">”

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2 d3 a9 h4 W7 Z0 I! l mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">问：这句话表达了孔子的什么主张？: R/ a4 u9 I) u. A9 h+ j. zcolor:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">

% i, {* V6 e6 t1 M$ Q9 ^! A( C ! m5 x" F3 k) R- ^) e$ x

) h; n) n! ?. f" f i mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">答：孔子以北辰居其中而众星环绕作比喻，深刻揭示了具有高尚品德对于为政者的重要性，具体、形象、生动地表达了孔子的德治思想。当时，在如何治理国家的问题上，主要有两种主张：其一是依靠政令刑法，强制百姓服从；其二是通过道德教化，引导百姓走上正道。孔子主张后者，强调为政者首先要以自己高尚的品德为榜样，尔后才能教化、影响、引导民众。) l5 \) f* p" {9 A' ^ mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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! C# p3 }6 `8 t I' \4 i* w/ `Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">Leslie) S) k) u; |& |. Z7 f+ Z2 } 10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">：! `: G6 E% z- s* H6 @+ Rmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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& I0 {9 Q& }% ?4 n% Z/ f) Y9 lmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">仁政具体指的是什么？道德层面的东西我觉得都太虚了，没有一个标准。同志们认为呢9 V$ l5 h: W3 J% y6 A mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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. F$ t- I& Q- y; |4 d7 \ q% }mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ( ]9 v3 Q. L9 H) M. \/ DTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：" N7 @3 [/ o# N0pt">

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5 e) m0 B M0 t, @) ~/ J2 D) VTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> 

; R. L! S' g7 F. r; F6 v10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; 5 ^* b- S; m: q& [4 E% q6 M" [4 Q- [mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服，以礼仪道德，民治而心服0 q, M5 @2 j$ w. g8 k mso-font-kerning:0pt">——( M I, C4 Y5 V6 P- v* s font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; 7 l4 G0 ^ L3 cmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">是的，这就是孔子说的5 S# |9 _0 K4 {" t mso-font-kerning:0pt">"0 V$ f/ T, f: h( J1 X5 R font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; 8 F# n# l1 P* s+ P$ Omso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">道之以政，齐之以刑，民免而无耻；道之以德，齐之以礼，有耻且格。8 L& m$ P# U. q+ ` mso-font-kerning:0pt">"

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( k c3 ^: ?! K9 J8 ^0 ? mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 3 E- a# |! T, c1 R: h0 RTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">无心随风：( W; Q: m) V$ g2 D: f/ Q5 p; w 0pt">

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" N# c! |6 M1 p$ L9 Z3 C) d 10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; $ W/ A9 V+ ~4 M6 z; w) I: r9 M, g1 wmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">德是孔子所说的君子之道吗？孔子的人性不分善恶，他信奉有教无类。我认为是孔子信奉的是德治礼治，而不是德治法治，儒法结合是后人的创新8 k% m2 }3 ~, O1 I9 S mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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+ @' W- C0 W& r2 Kmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ! A% V8 J! q1 B' t9 zTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">好風如水：: }! p9 a7 h% M. v% ] 0pt">

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( @" B, p' V( z# @9 b( n6 V mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">儒家法家绝对是治国两大法宝，是不是有说内法外王。希望依靠道德来治理国家。道德高尚至极只能是圣人，而不是君王。君王要有仁爱之心，但不能妄想通过道德来治理国家吧。干部要清明、清廉、清白/ X9 X# [! |( G- `( emso-font-kerning:0pt">

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0 ?- g! i. O" Q8 k0 x" s; Z* Q% eTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> 

( ^4 b4 o$ L: L7 xmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾老师，学生认为：政令刑罚、道德教化二者不可偏其一，无道德教化，民暴而戾，无政令刑罚，民散而慢。总而言之，应用儒家思想来做人，用发家思想来做事，这也符合我们的辩证法思想。儒法相结合不是从以往执政者所言的外儒内法。应该是在去除封建统治者为维护统治所宣扬的糟粕基础上，留下儒家所宣扬的大仁、大爱的思想，在结合现代化的法制、民主的精神，才是真正的儒法结合。一味从古，不如不学* |2 T& ~! ?7 C/ v7 rmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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7 r2 v0 S9 L2 P9 r mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: + q% K& L. E0 b' BTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：$ D& r7 T2 h {5 y- K, ~- L 0pt">

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/ \( F% [. t1 b3 K9 B5 V mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">现在不是都在强调以民为本，为人民服务么2 t8 r2 t4 W9 j" m7 Y6 O mso-font-kerning:0pt">——' ^ k2 Q9 }9 y/ K/ R1 i7 }/ P font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; 0 o* s i5 l3 w' Y8 [mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">这一思想的文化渊源，就是德治、仁政思想。德是孔子所说的君子之道吗？6 F N! o) t: B5 w- t* n' Qmso-font-kerning:0pt">——- j8 Q1 D [- r2 Y& m; ?font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">是的。为政者之德，还要突出以身作则，正人先正己，为下属作出表率。$ P2 a2 U I& H7 L0pt"> 3 i+ Z2 ^2 F4 J" T/ t7 u# B/ e Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">“贾老师，学生认为：政令刑罚、道德教化二者不可偏其一，无道德教化，民暴而戾，无政令刑罚，民散而慢。总而言之，应用儒家思想来做人，用发家思想来做事，这也符合我们的辩证法思想”+ s. w7 k3 u4 ]/ O7 g# `mso-font-kerning:0pt">——; T1 B& N! \$ t5 Y) [font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">基本赞同。孔子所说) j8 {6 m$ J& N" s; Wmso-font-kerning:0pt">"( u' [0 `$ t6 l# g( qfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; - M) s: ^" Y; m; J* ^, n! x( x( cmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">道之以政，齐之以刑，民免而无耻；道之以德，齐之以礼，有耻且格。+ A/ v2 k& |1 P mso-font-kerning:0pt">"5 ?. ]3 I/ _/ Z1 {4 G0 b; d# T font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">本身就包含着德治与法治相结合的观点。8 ~) {! V" `$ U; T( T% E. Z! R! Bmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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! P0 v+ n% y* p4 F+ Smso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: * W6 G0 ?4 B1 A- BTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以礼仪道德，民治而心服7 Z8 G: J4 p" ^# l# ^9 }0pt">    3 I9 V8 L. }5 l* w2 X font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; 8 |) Z* L( u5 H+ |; X- D* m- Jmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">人性本善7 ]5 Q s% d2 m. t( P* [mso-font-kerning:0pt">     ) q4 L! B/ ]6 j2 B, C mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; 2 l( P, o! U; X% @4 N O6 _! Omso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服( }/ R. S$ ? X- ~+ D* U 10.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> 0 O3 G' T% s$ v) C1 u- n, Vmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">人性本恶。人性本善，礼仪道德，天下大和。人性本恶，礼仪道德，与虎谋皮啊9 K4 n: O0 I R- C9 f% V, c$ Hmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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/ o8 {' {$ K- @* }" y! U- V7 ]& N mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">夕惕若：' |* I* n. Q2 b6 n7 I( d 0pt">

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1 e3 q+ K! L, I3 x3 I+ K# _Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> 

- J; }; m1 m9 B/ B8 J8 E# ^ mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 9 j4 {- T3 B! }/ {- T% Y& c0 F3 JTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">政令刑法重在社会上的约束，讲究实效，不遵守即被处罚，道德教化重在精神上、舆论上的约束，不遵守会被谴责和孤立，但不是收到立竿见影的实质处罚# x d- V* @* t6 H# l2 ^ mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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9 d3 p. H5 e' Q! t) }$ i$ Z! [9 D. I mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">我认为国治才能民安，所以教化没人人外儒是必要的，每个人也都有义务做到外儒！民安后如何能够实现久安呢？这就需要内法的作用啦！5 \+ \5 U' N2 }- ]' l, v+ K2 dmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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好多领导都喜欢说几句

贾老师，不愧是儒学精英。

感谢了，学习了哈！:D

听君一席话，胜读十年书啊

看君一篇文，胜读十年书！

看了老师们的点评和解说，胜读十年书！

感谢，为什么有乱码啊？

学习了，受到了很多启发